VR, AI, and the Future of the Classroom with Dr. Ryan Walker

In this episode of UnchartED State, co-hosts Susan Seal and Maddie Ludt are joined by Dr. Ryan Walker, associate professor at Mississippi State University and director of the VR certificate program.

From virtual rainforests to AI-powered teaching assistants, Dr. Walker shares how immersive technologies like virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR), and extended reality (XR) are reshaping how students learn, interact, and retain knowledge. The conversation explores how experiential learning in 3D environments leads to deeper understanding, stronger memory, and more engaging educational experiences.

The episode also dives into the growing role of AI in these environments, from intelligent avatars that guide learning to adaptive tutors that personalize instruction and assessment in real time.

In This Episode:

•  The difference between VR, AR, and XR—and how each is used in education 
•  Why experiential, immersive learning leads to stronger retention 
•  How AI avatars and virtual teaching assistants are changing instruction 
•  The role of VR in STEM, healthcare, engineering, and beyond 
•  Accessibility, engagement, and the future of assessment in virtual spaces 
•  How higher education is (and isn’t) keeping pace with emerging technologies 
•  What it means to design learning experiences—not just deliver content 

As immersive technology and AI continue to evolve, this episode explores how higher education can move beyond traditional models and into fully interactive, student-centered learning environments.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome to Uncharted State, where we explore the changing landscape of higher education. And today we're jumping out of the classroom into another dimension entirely. Hello. Have you used virtual reality a lot?

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Yeah, um, well, I I guess I wouldn't say a lot, but um I've been sort of introduced to it because of our guest today, um, and got to try it out. Um, and it's it's pretty cool. So I'm really excited about this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

So Maddie, uh if you've listened before, you know she brings uh the perspective of recruitment, outreach, uh, and engagement. And uh today we have Dr. Ryan Walker as our guest.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I'm glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Uh he is an associate professor in the College of Professional and Continuing Studies here at Mississippi State and directs our VR certificate program and builds immersive learning experiences uh in general general education, geosciences, and other courses at Mississippi State. So we're glad to have you this morning. Well, I'm glad to be here. Absolutely. So before we get into some of our hard-hitting questions, you know, those uh just walk us through a little bit of what your world is like uh as an associate professor working in the virtual reality world.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Well, first off, um I think one of the most exciting things about it is it's so new and changing on a daily basis. So there's always a new challenge, there's always a new hack, a workaround, there's always something fun to explore. So it definitely keeps me on my toes. But uh I think um one of my favorite aspects of it is just really the creative component. Um, the, the, the, in a day-to-day, I don't know if I'll be working on, like you mentioned, some geosciences, or I'm currently working on some projects for a STEM explorations course that's real cross-cutting across the silos of science. So it's not just chemistry, physics, biology. It's really um integrates across all of the disciplines. So there's a lot of variety there. And, you know, I might be in a tropical rainforest one day talking about um, you know, photosynthesis and a water cycle. And then, you know, that afternoon I might be in a desert um doing uh um doing a lesson on um, you know, uh radiant heat and cooling. Oh, and then and then um actually I just did this experience on um the physics of cart racing. Uh yeah, yeah, teaching uh middle school physics concepts um by racing go-karts. Cool.

unknown 2:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Well, a lot of times I'll I'll walk by your office and you're up, you're standing up, flailing around, talking to yourself. Uh, so I know there's something interesting going on in there.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Yesterday I was on the beach in in Ryan's office. Oh wow. So it was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah. Um uh yeah, the tropical atoll, right? I'm talking about sea level rise. But um, but uh, but you know, it's funny you say that because um I I often have people in there with me. So I'm not necessarily talking to myself. Um, but um I wouldn't put it past myself. Um to yeah, literally talking to myself because I actually have uh an AI avatar of myself. Um and so we can we can get into some pretty um detailed conversations. That's cool with yourself. With myself, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Um, well, and actually um even using that uh that AI to produce uh produce content, um I'm actually kind of gotten to the point where I'm like, well, hold on a second. Did I actually record that? Um like I have to think back, or or is that my um my AI generated um avatar and content?

unknown 3:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah, I want to get into where AI fits uh a little bit later. So you've got VR and AR and XR and what do all those things mean for somebody who maybe is is new to them? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Okay. So when we think about um uh VR, we're thinking about fully immersive um virtual reality. So um that is where you're in a completely um computer generated environment. Um there's there's no peak to the outside world. With a headset. With a headset, yeah. Yeah. Headsets have come a long way in the past uh three to five years, and um, they're just gonna continue to get um lighter, faster frame rates, and uh just better quality, more immersive, which are gonna allow for um better um high resolution environments. So you have that fully immersive virtual reality, VR, and then um you have AR, which is your augmented reality. To me, this is gonna work really well when we start to think about um individuals learning together collectively, standing around a desk or a table. Like the humans are in the same location with their headset on, and um, we could have a complete virtual chemistry lab going on in front of us that we can all see the stuff. We can, we can interact with the different objects, uh, but those uh virtual components um without a headset or without the right goggles, um you wouldn't see them in the room. Um, and I've actually gotten a lot of really great assets in anatomy, um, in physiology. So, so like, I mean, you can have uh, I mean, for lack of a better term, you can have a cadaver on the table and be looking at all the anatomy, the different muscle groups, the different bones, and have that uh in a uh space where you can interact with your peers um in a kind of a group setting.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

So the augmented, you've got part of it's the virtual, right? But then you can also interact with each other in live. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah, absolutely. Um XR is really just kind of like um all inclusive. I mean, um, when you talk about XR, it could go either way. Um, but mainly those are the two that we're dealing with is the VR and the um the AR.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

The AR. Are you doing much with the AR side?

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Uh yeah. Um, so so the engaged platform has really just kind of opened up um that option. Um, and so most of what I'm building right now is designed for um individuals that are not physically at the same location. Um, so they're they're distance students um logging in from their home computers or from their home headsets and and we're meeting together in a virtual space. But uh as I start to um build out more um experiences that uh students will come to a central location and actually have their humans in the same spot, um, we'll we'll begin to use utilize that more more readily.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

So, you know, we're talking about applications for STEM, for medicine, um, for engineering, um, and those type of disciplines. A r a really cool example that I saw of this in a completely unexpected location is I was at a sport admin conference and um there was a group uh from a school who used VR to evaluate facilities for athletics, and students explored those facilities as a differently abled individual to identify like points that would make access difficult.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Um and I thought that was like so interesting. But you know, we're talking about STEM, we're talking about Madison, like what are the disciplines that are leading this charge for integrating this technology?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Gosh, you you mentioned uh almost like an engineering application or a um architectural. Uh so actually being able to walk through um plans and locations and and get a sense of that space um more so than like a two-dimensional drawing. Um, but when we start to think about more engineering and like mechanical engineering, um, there's so much information that you can uh visually display um in an augmented reality headset. So, for example, um BMW is doing a lot of work for their automotive technicians. So I can have on some glasses and uh, you know, I can just I I can speak to my glasses now. I actually have a meta set in my office that um I could let you guys try out. Essentially, um you say, hey, I'm gonna change this alternator on this 700 Mercedes Benz. And it will literally scan the the engine bay and it will overlay on top of that labels that show what is what, and it'll say, like literally first, remove this screw, second, remove this screw. You know, and if I run into an issue as a as a um BMW mechanic, um, I can literally ping an engineer, um, and that engineer can look and see exactly what I'm looking at. They can see live what I'm working with and help me troubleshoot. So not only can you connect to live individuals um remotely, but also when AI steps into that role, um, being able to provide this feedback. And so, so I mean, we're we're we're already to the point where it's being used in um these fields, but also medicine. Like um, so so we're to the point where we can do surgeries um at remote locations um using different technology. Uh, incorporating uh VR and AR into that is going to be a major leap forward as well. But with respect to a lot of where the the field is right now, education is a huge component that VR and AR are growing into. Um, and that is where I'm producing a lot of my content um is for is for schools. And one of the reasons why um it has really taken off in that space is because experiential learning is so durable. If you think about it from the standpoint of um uh the way our brains are wired, when we are moving down a hallway or um, you know, walking across a field or um, you know, walking to class across the um the drill field, um, you know, our brains are processing information around us um effortlessly, right? We don't think about, wow, look at the color of the grass. All of that is imprinted in our mind. And so when we think about learning in a um a two-dimensional space, um, our brains have to adapt to learn in that way. We're already programmed to be learning in a three-dimensional capacity. And so um, when kids learn something in VR, they just remember it. So um, I have a really good example of this is I was uh when I was piloting this technology, I taught a seventh grade class uh in Pomona County, California. Um they had a classroom set of headsets, but they did not have a uh science teacher. And so um it was very much like the magic school bus, you know, like um uh the kids show up in the morning and they they pop on their headset and I'm in there and we teach science. But one of the one of the lessons I taught was on photosynthesis. And um, you know, I've taught it a million times before, where I write the equation on the chalkboard and I say, you know what, you have to memorize this, it's important. But I did it different because we could. We're in VR. And so I actually handed them a glucose molecule, and the kids are turning it, looking at it, and we're talking about, you know, the different atoms that make it up, and uh we talk about the formula, and then we say, I just explained to them that look, this is chemical energy. We need this to survive, but you know, we can't make it. Only plants can make it. And so let's figure that out. And so the kids look at the plants and they realize that there's water molecules going in the roots. They realize that there's carbon dioxide going into the leaves and oxygen leaving. So all I had to do is kind of point them in the direction of like, well, how many of those carbon dioxides do you think we'd need to build a glucose? And then they just started thinking Legos, right? And they found the different parts and they knew they needed this many for that. And well, anyway, long story short, this was a 45-minute lesson. Um, about uh six to eight months later, I ran into one of my students and I just said, uh, do you remember that lesson we did on photosynthesis? And she goes, Oh, yeah, Dr. Walker, I definitely remember. And I was like, uh, well, well, tell me about it. And she goes, Oh, I'm not gonna remember that equation. Like, just totally right off the cuff. She's like, I'm not gonna remember that. And I said, Oh, no, no, that's not what I asked. Like, I'm thinking about redoing it, and um, I'm just curious what you remember. And she just said, Well, okay, so I remember we were at this location, and I remember that because the grass was blowing and I noticed that there was a gas exchange with the leaves, and they were releasing carbon dioxide, or no, no, they were releasing oxygen, but they were taking in carbon dioxide. And we figured out that we needed six carbon dioxide molecules to build a glucose, which is C6H1206, and then it released this oxygen, which was awesome because that's what we need to break down the glucose through cellular respiration. And she was just, she just rattled it off, right? Yeah, she just literally remembered it like having lunch with her grandmother. The kids are getting really durable experiences that they can draw on. They're also doing less screen time. Um, so so that's a 45-minute lesson that you just remember, right? And so you're doing it. Because you're doing it. Yeah, it's a really powerful learning tool, and we're just kind of on the cusp of of beginning to understand this.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

So, where does where does gaming fit in? Was that development what really kind of got VR started? Or where was it in that? And right, right. Okay. You know, is there a connection there with Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

So, so I would have to say the real forefront, the the technology that really pushed this um to where it is today is actually flight simulators. Um uh the Air Force, um, that they like in the 70s, they were investing a lot in this um this idea of of VR. And then that that did transition into gaming. Um and then um now an infinite number of games out there where you can explore these worlds and stuff like that. But the thing I'm really running into is um, first off, teaching college students that are are gamers. Yeah. Um, so so they don't necessarily realize how easy it is to produce content. Um, they think about it as, oh, you know, I have to get a degree in um, you know, computer science, I have to do that. And I mean, that's that's that's great. I mean, that would serve you well, but really um having an understanding of art, having an understanding of locations, having an understanding of um different media types um would actually almost serve them better. Um, because the what we're using to build VR content these days, there are no ones and zeros. There is no coding necessary. Um, and so so really having a more artistic background um and and thinking about 3D modeling and stuff like that, that's that's a better fit. But these kids are gamers. Um, and so um I've just repackaged um the VR experience too into this idea of build your own adventure. Um, and I'm really excited about that because um we have some new technology that that Optima has allowed us to use with our students, where um they can just effortlessly stitch these experiences together um using uh an AI tool that kind of organizes them and does all the back-end hard stuff, like the back-end programming side of it. And so now they can it's more plug and play. I mean, they can just throw something together, go ahead and experience it, then hop back out and tweak it and then jump back in. And so it's it's really um it's sped up the process of producing this content. Um, but with respect to gamers, so uh I'm I'm dealing with that group of college students. Um, but then here in the College of Professional Continuing Studies, we really serve this um non-traditional student. And so we have a lot of folks that are coming back to finish up a bachelor's degree. And with my new course I just launched, it's called STEM Explorations. Um, it's actually approved as a university general elective. And this is where we're cutting down, we're cutting across the silos of um of science. And so everybody has a kind of a working knowledge and we address a lot of common misconceptions. But this is designed as a a course that somebody coming back into school can take this science, it meets their elective requirement. Um, but it's not throwing them to the wolves of like chemistry one, you know? Yeah. Um, and so it's it's really um, it's manageable. But the thing I love about it most is um is I'll be I'll be having a conversation um with an individual in the metaverse. We're we're doing a meetup and we're we're talking about it, and I'll hear like their kids in the background being like, mom, mom, let me do it. Let me, can I do it? Can I try? And and so, so like kids, kids, these gamers are are jealous of their parents that are taking these classes. And um, and anyway, they're they're they're having fun exploring it as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

I think in higher ed, you know, one thing we've talked about is you've got students that have been in these really immersive games. You've got adults that are working in companies that are using VR, just like you were talking about with the sports. And then if they go into an online class or another class where it's just very either lecture-based or here's all your modules go in and do that, it just doesn't hit right. You know, education has to keep up with that immersiveness of what's going on around.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

I I agree wholeheartedly. And and I'm seeing that in the the initial um feedback I'm getting from these students. Um, they love it. They love the interactiveness. They love like, I mean, they get so excited when they can hop into a VR lab um on their own time and and have one-on-one with the professor as we're explaining, you know, glucose molecules, you know, like so. I've gotten really, really good feedback um from uh about that level of immersion and about that uh kind of new paradigm. Um, one of the things that um the students are really kind of pushing back against are like these just long lecture videos. So what I did is I actually working with uh some of our instructional designers here in the college, we were very strategic about um first they see a video of my human. And then as we move into the course um and they get more experience in the metaverse in in VR, then we transition over to videos of my avatar, um, explaining and we kind of we kind of go back and forth with that. Um and it and is and we did it in a very strategic way to get them kind of more comfortable to that idea of learning from an avatar.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah. They meet you first.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

They meet my human first, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

To me, it's it's it's normal to think about in terms of like you're meeting my human versus meeting my avatar. Yeah. Um, because I'm in it all the time, right? Um, and I've had people that I've only met in VR, and this is gonna sound really weird, but when I have work dreams, um, they show up as an avatar. Right. And it's just because of course they do. Right, right. It's just and so like the the lines of reality are are are are I guess blurring, I guess you could say.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Where is higher ed in uh the pace of things? We've had uh some previous guests who talked about uh immersive technology and kind of predicted where that's going and uh how fast things are moving. Are we keeping up? You know, how how are we doing as higher ed as a whole, not just here at Mississippi State, but what you've seen?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Well, so so as a as a very forward thinker, as as somebody who's really kind of um blazing the trail on this, I would like to think that we're further along than we are. Um, but there's there's some resistance that like with new technology, there's there's some pickups to it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Say it's not so. But it's beginning to be realized. Um, and and I think some of the places that we're seeing this is really where we can have good added value. Um, like for example, um, chemistry labs, right? Like there's a huge amount of overhead and um having these labs, having all that safety equipment, having all that. And I mean, those definitely have their place. Um, but for the asynchronous student um who is uh working on their degree, like they don't have access to those labs and can't come to physically to the location. Um, there's also a huge amount of liability that the university takes on with students interacting with those chemicals. Now, I'm not um I'm not suggesting that we phase out chemistry labs. In fact, um the folks over at chemistry would really, really love to have a virtual reality version of these lower level um courses um to just to cut down on costs. Um and and then also increase capacity, probably also. Absolutely. And and we were also talking about a lot of um abstract content that um that I mean, if I explain an atom to a room of 25 people, there's gonna be 25 mental images of what an atom is, you know. Um, but if I can hand it to them, then it cuts down on that abstractness, it makes it more concrete. Um, so when we start talking about um, you know, um atomic uh well, we talk about chemical bonding, right? Um you can actually see the sharing of electrons. You you can actually, and so so students are able to grasp these concepts um in a in a more durable way, in a in a longer lasting way. And so uh so um so to come back to your question, um, higher ed is is is coming around to to deploying this uh technology and um and one of the areas that I think we're gonna see really good growth really quickly um are with some AI um tutors. Uh and so so I am able to um in this these courses that I'm building, I'm incorporating a TA um in the metaverse that students can interact with, and they're they've got Uh their backstory, like I mean, like um in the weather and climate class, like uh he has a backstory where one of them, the male TA, uh that studies hurricanes and um the breaking up of hurricanes. And then our female TA is a um, she's uh she does tornadoes and early warning systems for tornadoes. And so like they'll work in, like uh they'll talk about their background research and stuff, but they're completely focused. I I have uploaded into them um all of the course content. So if a student is struggling with a concept, um they can ask the AI TA. And what I'm learning and what I'm realizing is these kids are more willing to ask uh a stupid question. You know, I say that in quotes, right? Because there are no stupid questions, but but they're more willing to ask an AI character than risk looking silly in front of their actual TA. And so it's really cool. I get transcripts back of like all the questions they ask. And so that way I can actually modify the instruction. Cause let's say if everybody's asking questions about the formation of tornadoes, then maybe I didn't teach that well enough. And so I can go back and kind of beef up that component. I think we're going to see uh higher ed really kind of embrace that idea of um of AI learning environments.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Maddie, I feel like I'm getting a science lesson this morning.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

I know I'm learning so much, but that that like really relates to what we're seeing um on the college search side and like how much AI has changed that experience for students who are looking at their college options and they do the same thing. They're more inclined to ask AI. That's what you know, it you could be called stupid questions, like that they would consider like a stupid question or an obvious question, like they're more inclined to ask that. But that's really cool that you're um using that to improve your your delivery and to gather data about you know what your students are asking about. So I think that that's a really great example of of how that application can continue to mold your class experience.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Well, absolutely. It's truly researching the deployment of it. So, so um we're we're at a really good point right now where I have a couple classes up and running where we're readily using this technology. And so this is the perfect laboratory to understand um how to best deploy it, how to uh engage with individuals that have never or have no VR experience at all, um, and how to train them up, how they're leveraging it, what they like, what they what they find challenging. And so, like truly, this is a learning lab where you know we're researching uh practice as we're deploying.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

So AI and VR together are just really changing it. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah. Um, just to the fact that I can I can put on a headset, um, load uh an AI character and say, all right, um, I want to go to a rainforest and boom, it loads. And I want to go to a rainforest. Oh, right. Well, hey, we'll we'll hop out of here. It could take me there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

It can spawn the 3D models. Like if you think back to Star Trek, you know, I think about Star Trek and they had the holodeck, right? Um, I mean, we're there, you know, we're we're at that point where um you can ask an AI character about an environment that you want to explore, and it's right there at your fingertips.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Join our next episode from the rainforest, right? How do you think? Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about outcomes, learning outcomes, because that's that's what matters, right? At the end of the day. Yep. Um research points to some of the things that you've talked about in the levels of engagement, retention, um, the motivation of students, but there's also some of on the negative side of um motion sickness, cognitive load, which can be in any any course, of course, uh course. What is the research really showing? Give us kind of a broad uh idea of what uh research is showing in terms of learning outcomes beyond just what I just so I think I think the first thing we want to do is um let's frame what is an effective um VR lesson.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Yeah. Um uh because because if you if you go beyond a certain point, uh a point of time in a headset, like if you if your lesson goes over an hour, that's too long. Uh students are gonna be start experiencing um visual fatigue, um, the also that cognitive load. Um uh and so so it's important that we we keep it to right at like 45 minutes. So that's that seems to be a really comfortable spot. Um anytime, anything over that, you start to get in the realm of motion sickness. Um, but uh the new headsets have a much faster frame rate. Um, and so they're less likely to cause that that's the technology is gonna correct some of that. Absolutely, absolutely. Um, and so so then um when we start to think about like a 45-minute experience, I like to think about it from the standpoint of like a 5e model. Um, that's uh something we always use in science education that we talk about, you know, you engage the prior uh prior knowledge and then you uh give them um some new information that they kind of have to wrestle with and try to organize it with that prior knowledge. And then you provide kind of more instruction on that, and then you give them a novel um opportunity to apply what they've learned, you know, and so if you think about this like kind of little loop we have, um the first thing we do is, you know, we drop them into an environment and say, go explore. Right. And so, like we're using the example of the rainforest. So um we drop them in a rainforest and we just give them three to five minutes to go explore. And they're so they're like, oh my gosh, do you hear the rain? Do you hear the birds? You see these plants. Ooh, this looks like uh this type of plant, you know, and um, and they just they're they're excited, they're exploring. Um, but then you reel them in and you focus on, okay, just kind of a broad, okay, this is what we're gonna learn about today. Um, and so that triggers the prior knowledge. It starts um getting them talking about what they already know. And so as long as you're kind of following then the this this this methodology, then um the students automatically know, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna apply what I'm learning, right? And so, so they get in this kind of rhythm of of what to expect. With with that being said, um, they're already anticipating the next action they're going to be partaking in. And so, so once they've gone through this learning cycle several times, their brains, they're they're kind of wired to to explore concepts um in that way. You know, I think about my education experience, and like I remember when the teacher would hand out a time test, right? Like a mathematical time test. Like we have these routines um that that we get used to in a learning environment, and it's no different from VR. So I guess that's what I'm trying to say is when we establish these routines, um, that's where we can really focus on the outcomes. And when I when people pop out of the headset, the first thing I want them to do is go tell somebody what they've learned, right? Take it out of the metaverse and be able to talk about it. So when we are measuring outcomes, um, really we have them applying what they're learning in VR. Um, but then uh as far as their assignments go in Canvas, um, I have a lot of video discussions where they talk about their experience. And that really kind of drives home those those objectives that we experienced in VR.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

So it I think what you're saying is it it follows basic educational research. That totally good teaching is good teaching and virtual reality can help you be an a good teacher because of those immersive experiences and the things that we know, whether it's VR or some other way, that's going to help you have a strong class. You can also be a bad teacher with VR. Oh, absolutely. Bad teaching is bad teaching regardless of the technologies that you use.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

But I have to say that effective teaching in a regular classroom um transfers seamlessly into the metaverse. Um, and and we actually have some great tools that we can use that help with classroom management.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Okay, so let's talk about industry and and and Maddie works a lot with building our uh industry partnerships uh as well. Industry's doing some cool stuff. I mean, I was looking at something the other day where uh Walmart uses VR for their inventory control. They can look through their warehouses and use VR to do that and and those types of things. Um and I know there's some really cool stuff going on. How do we prepare our students to work in environments like that of what's going on in industry? And Maddie, are you seeing some of that from from what our students see as well?

SPEAKER_00 31:01

That's that's a great um that's a that's a great question. And in fact, um one of the things I love about my um my VR certificate program is it's truly designed to be interdisciplinary. I mean, I have kids that have a marketing background, um, I have kids that are uh mechanical engineers, uh, have elementary ed, you know, and so I have this wide range of individuals. And um I think how we are preparing them is we are exposing them to the platform and allowing them to envision how their industry is going to implement it um because because they're gonna be the ones that take this into that job place. Give them the broad knowledge and then they can apply it however it's worked out. Absolutely, because because they're gonna know best um how it fits in what they're doing. Um, I mean, I think about like this um uh the student that was a marketing major, they they immediately um on in their project that they produced for the class, um, they wanted to think about it like as far as like real estate. Like, why not pop on a headset and you can walk through a house uh and experience it almost firsthand? So I I thought it was pretty cool that they um they mapped out um they're they're from Nashville, I think, and uh they laid a map flat and put some uh houses on the map that you could actually go through and explore.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Well, in university town, I've multiple people have said we bought a house we'd never seen. Right. Yeah. So that kind of helps with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

I think like that last part of your model like is really key, not just to, you know, the VR applications that we've been talking about, but higher ed in general, is that application piece and taking that to your future employer, your current employer, and and showing how the competencies and the skills that you developed in your program benefits them and is going to lead that organization in the future. And there's a lot of talk about VR being cost prohibitive, headsets, you know, I think the pricing has become more competitive on those. But what's really cost prohibitive that VR is solving a problem for you already identified in these training simulations where you have an overlay. And that's not just industry, that's here too, because what's really cost prohibitive is tying up an additional machining unit to train somebody or trying to get your hands on one here at a university.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Right. There's a great example. Um, there's a company that um uh repairs windmills, like the big ones that are out in the ocean. They developed a very basic simulator so um for for the technicians. So, so when they actually show up on site to do service on these giant wind turbines, um, like they'll just flat out tell you, they're like, Well, it's not my first time because I've already experienced this. It's that level of training that it's it's like you said, it's it's the cost prohibitive component would be fly all those techs to a certain spot, let them turn wrenches on a thing. But this for 300 bucks, I can mail them a headset and they can do the training at home before they get there.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Well, even you you were mentioning labs from a university standpoint. Having to set up a lab takes time, effort, infrastructure. Yeah. Yeah. All the things uh that if you don't have to set that up every time, right? Uh that saves you money as well. So what are are the costs coming down?

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Oh, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And um the ability to produce content, um, the cost of uh the ability to produce content is coming down significantly. A lot of these AI platforms, I can have it create a world, right? I can I can say, okay, you know, I want a um, you know, a 1900s um US city, you know, and from the West, you know, and and it will be able to generate a location for me. Um, typically that would have taken a set designer months to do uh to produce.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

And in saying that, I would think history would be a cool place to use with VR. I mean, actually being there at the historical moment and right, right.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Um, and and because it's experiential. It's it's experiential learning, right? Um, and um, you know, we were talking about uh using it to explore facilities and understand accessibility. It's also an amazing empathy machine. I just did this experience, um uh Anne Frank. You actually go into her um I don't know that I want to do the Anne Frank experience. Well, it it really, well, it really the teachable moment for her and and thinking about you know how they hid behind the in this annex. Absolutely. Um, but then while you're on the street, you know, like um walking through town, you see like the the ration lines and you see like sure and there's there's uh you know, there's an AI soldier there that says, Hey, where are you going? Let me see your papers. You know, and it's intimidating. It's like having that really um it it history.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Yeah, you learn it in a level that you can't get just from reading about it.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

So what are some of the we talked about costs are going down?

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Uh are there other barriers so of VR really continuing to take off or up until this point, um, the barrier to um to VR just exploding and everybody having a headset um is really the lack of content. There's not a lot of content that's out there. It's been really expensive to produce content. I mean, the the major gaming studios, the major video um uh streaming groups, I mean, they've they've put a lot of resources into it. Now that um the technology is catching up, um, we're able to produce content so much more quickly. I mean, you think about um social media. Social media didn't explode until anybody could produce a video on their phone and post it, you know, and and we're just now on the cusp of that in VR. So um once people are able to start producing their own experiences and share those, um, then it's going to that's what's gonna really cause it to take off.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

So are we gonna have the same same issues we have with social media? That I mean, there's great things about social media and it gives everybody a voice, but it also gives people a voice about things they have no idea what they're saying.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yes, no, that's a that's a that's a really good point. And I mean, that that's that's gonna carry over with this as well. I mean, it's a it's a it's always good and bad of everything.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Do you do you think that that's the point where um these environments take over as like our new third place? Because like we're we're losing the third place as people become more and more online. Um, we go to work, we go to school, or we go home, you know. Um, but that third place, like where societies have typically hung out, um do you think that when we get to that point where everyone's a creator, where everyone is a participant, that's when these these virtual environments become our third space.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

For those who remember our cheers, right? Our cheers. The the bar. Oh, oh, right, right, right, yeah. Wherever everybody goes in, yeah, knows your name.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Um so so to actually I actually speak to this. I'm telling a story now uh about my nine-year-old. Um, so uh she has she has two friends that um that go to the the VR school, um the Optima ed VR school. They have metaverse meetups where they'll just, you know, on a Saturday morning, they'll get together and play.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

And and that was like my only knowledge of this before like you came here and joined our college. Like when I was in grad school, that's how I would meet with my classmates. Like at the time our school was called SLIS, and we had like SLIS Island, and all of us would like meet up there for like a class sometimes or a presentation, or you know, we could just hang out there. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

So So Ellen um meets up with her her friends, and the their favorite location is this suburban neighborhood. And the it's got all these different houses. They pick a house and they go and they place furniture and they decorate, and then they invite each other over to take them on a tour. And but that's their go-to. That's that's the place they want to hang out. And then then they might decide, oh, well, maybe we should go drive go-karts in the desert or whatever. And so they'll they'll hop to another place. But but actually, yes, I do see this as kind of our our third space, a lot of um where we're going to spend time uh um socializing and yeah and interacting.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

I think that like has some implications for our students in our college. You know, we've got a mix of in-person and online students um here at CPCS. Um, and you know, maybe that's the place that unites them. Um online, we made a virtual tour um last year. And one of our challenges was like, how do we bring the campus experience to our online students? And like they they want to be here, they want to explore that environment and they want to see what it's like. And good storytelling was the way that we solved that problem of like how we make it relevant to them. And I think to your point, like it is a creative art. Um, and and it's a great creative outlet for these people who who have the art, who have the creative um kind of um predisposition, who have um a want to create um these these immersive environments. Right. And I I think like sometimes we think art and technology are like two totally separate things. So I'm probably getting too philosophical here at the end of our podcast.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

By training, I'm a scientist. And and people usually think of scientists as being very, you know, methodical. But I really view science as my medium. I I I'm an artist. I think about things very creatively. I come up with creative solutions, problem solving. And I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why I've really um gravitated toward VR is because it's such a creative outlet and and being able to truly create a world of anything you can imagine is possible. And it's just, it's, it's a, it's a really powerful feeling. It's a powerful experience, you know?

SPEAKER_01 40:48

And so there's so many opportunities. We've talked about a lot of them today, a lot of the things that you're already doing, so many possibilities. Um, we've talked a little bit about barriers. Um, but as we wrap up, what are you most excited about?

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Oh gosh. Um, I think the thing that's really got me excited is um the the use of the AI characters. So um traditionally when producing content, um uh to draw from the gaming uh language, we have NPCs or non-player characters um that you students interact with and um and they kind of drive that forward. So um what what what I'm now able to do is I'm able to use AI characters that drive the narrative forward. Um and so, so instead of these stagnant recordings of myself saying, you know, okay, do this, this, and this, and then you'll move forward, um, I can literally have an AI character that's prompted to ask you questions. And so um, I'm actually to the point where um I can give these AI characters a rubric and they can have a conversation with you and determine your level of understanding. So when we think about like assessment, yeah. Um, let's say that if I was going to assess your knowledge of um Newton's laws of motion, right? Um Let's don't do that, by the way. Okay, okay, but but you could sit down and have a conversation with Newton. Um, and and and he would ask probing questions that would uh elicit your explanations. And so, so we're going to be able to get a really robust understanding of what you know without you having to sit down and take like in one of those forms.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

It doesn't feel like a test.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Right. It doesn't feel like a test. And you and it's um it's more accessible. Well, just neurobiological diversity. Like I'm really challenged around spelling, you know. So, you know, just the idea of composing sentences and spelling everything correctly um is intimidating for me. But I can sit down and talk to you about it for days, you know, and so so from an accessibility standpoint, um, this is really the way we're going to change. Um gosh, I mean, if if AI is in the way of us writing papers, right? If if we assessed our students' understanding by making them write papers, and that is no longer a viable option.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

That'll work, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Right, then, then man, let's lean into this idea of interviews, right? Let's sit down and talk to somebody and see what they know. And um, and I'm I'm at the point where I am able to create these characters that can give you that um truly differentiated instruction because it's able to talk to you and find out where you're at and then take you to where you need to be, um, no matter what your starting point is.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Yeah, I think that's that's really gonna be game changing.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

So thank you for being here today. Oh, I appreciate that. Great, great conversation. So we we mentioned your VR certificate.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Where if somebody's like, Oh, I want to do that, um go to the website, um, shoot me an email. Um first thing I'd probably do is just invite you over and throw on a headset and uh get a get a feel for it. Um And then uh yeah, totally. And then um kind of think about uh where you're at uh experience wise and then um where do you want to go with it and then um gosh just kind of put together a plan of how that might work out.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Maybe you can help us uh develop a virtual setting for our podcast. Oh, that would be cool.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

That'd be cool. That'd be cool. Um uh we we start.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

We think Jared.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

I mean the next time we'll meet on the virtual set.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

There we go. Sounds good. All right, thank you. It's been a great conversation. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Thank you for joining us on Uncharted State. We hope today's conversation sparks some new ideas about the future of higher education. Hit follow so you never miss an episode. You never know what uncharted territory we'll explore next.